Daniels Friday 7/5

[FlyingFelix]

Tomorrow there's a good possibility of a rare awesome flight at Daniels (rare for me, I've been there 4 times and sledded every time).
There is already interest (bahamianflyer and probably Matthew are going) - I thought I's start a thread about it and see if there's more interest.
Let's go fly!

[FlyingFelix]

I'm thinking of a 1 PM or later ETA - it's far from Baltimore and I understand it's best in late after-noon at Daniels. Is this true?

[bahamianflyer]

I will be there about 1:00.

Bruce McDaniel
540-424-8682

[mingram]

Just heard from Felix who got to soar. Too bad Bruce's car broke down. Looked like a good day.

PGs are headed to Daniels on Saturday.

[FlyingFelix]

Yes, I finally got to soar Daniels
Great day for HG! Got there at 1:45 Bruce told me he had car trouble and had the car towed back home...
I decided to set up and then checked out the winds for a while. Launched in a nice cycle around 3 PM after a welcomed lull - allowed me to easily get into the slot.
I stayed up for about 75 minutes, topped out about 850" above launch. Had hopes for a longer flight and to get to cloud base but it just didn't happen - the cloud streets were passing by to the left and right of launch, didn't make it over and I didn't want to leave the ridge and hope to make it to one...anyway - awesome flight, some fast updrafts and lots of birds. Saw close up a Peregrine Falcon (I just read in a post those cool birds have been introduced recently)
Landed in the SW field, it was super-bumpy around both LZ's (I even thought I was going to dig out a couple of times in some strong bubbles).
It was still blowing around 10 MPH at 6 PM at launch when I was back up at my car.
I may make a video of today, not sure when I'll go to Daniels next - a serious hassle to make it there and back. Well worth it today for sure.

[darbbb]

Did you have to launch yourself and fly alone?

[FlyingFelix]

Yep. 'twas fun.

[FlyingFelix]

Finally made a video of this flight.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTJK2vbE ... e=youtu.be

[Lostgriz]

850 inches above launch? Dude, your vario is way more sensative than mine.

[XCanytime]

Felix,
Glad that you got to soar Daniels, but as the flight director of this club I have to speak up. Really man, you should never, ever, fly alone. That is one of the old time adages of flying. You are putting the site and yourself at increased risk when you fly alone than when others are present. You find flying alone exciting? What if shit had hit the fan, and you were KTFO in a tree landing blowing the launch or just after launching? One of our local pilots had that happen to him landing out XC from Daniels on 4/9/95. He was lucky to have been discovered by the landowner within an hour after the incident. What are the odds that somebody would have found you in an hour? Slim to none. A cavalier attitude towards safety is a hazardous attitude, and it will eventually bite very hard.

Bacil

[mingram]

You're pretty much always flying solo when you're flying XC, but we have ways to help keep people informed.

The PGs are using LiveTrack24.com either through an app on the phone or Flymaster. They work well when you have cell signal and make it fun to follow your friends if you're stuck at work. Or when you're both flying XC you can see which direction they went. For flying solo you could have a friend at home following you and then check in with them after landing.

SPOT trackers are even better because it's guaranteed to have a signal. They can also do live tracking. I use mine for texting friends when I land after XC and don't have cell service to let them know I'm ok or need help. SPOTS have SOS buttons to alert emergency crew, but that obviously requires that you're conscious and can push it.

Jon Brantley uses Delorme to communicate with his ground crew (Amy) and can send and receive text messages.

I've started flying with my iPhone earbuds so I can listen to music or take a phone call in the air. It's simple and works insanely well. I guess if I was launching solo I could call someone and talk to them throughout my launch and landing so they know I got in the air or down ok. Maybe soon we'll have live video links so someone could watch the whole thing.

We don't often find ourselves on launch alone. Not having someone at the site is a big disadvantage if things were to go wrong. Hopefully we never have to do it. Maybe if you can't find a friend for the mountains you go towing. Maybe we shouldn't risk it, but some will. Me included on a rare occasion.

[FlyingFelix]

You're pretty much always flying solo when you're flying XC

Agreed!

I didn't go there intending to fly alone, it just turned out that way - I watched the conditions carefully before deciding to give it a go. I kept my wife up to date with what's going on. Yes, it was exciting, had it been scary I wouldn't of gone for it.
I do fly with my cellphone and a flight app but not live tracking, I'll look into that. I don't know about flying with the ear buds in but I can see the allure. A Spot device is definitely something I'll have to get in the future.

[Ward Odenwald]

“I kept my wife up to date with what's going on. Yes, it was exciting, had it been scary I wouldn't of gone for it.”

How many mountain launches have you had since trashing your last glider at Bill’s?
Were conditions scary during that launch?
When time is precious after an unexpected accident just how effective is calling your wife who is hours away, assuming that you could make the call?

“You're pretty much always flying solo when you're flying XC”

Bacil’s warning has little to do with leaving the neighborhood and everything to do with a local landowner finding you alone after an accident.

Risky/selfish behavior not only risks your health and the well-being of your family, it jeopardizes our flying sites!

Ward

[FlyingFelix]

“I kept my wife up to date with what's going on. Yes, it was exciting, had it been scary I wouldn't of gone for it.”

How many mountain launches have you had since trashing your last glider at Bill’s?
Were conditions scary during that launch?
When time is precious after an unexpected accident just how effective is calling your wife who is hours away, assuming that you could make the call?

“You're pretty much always flying solo when you're flying XC”

Bacil’s warning has little to do with leaving the neighborhood and everything to do with a local landowner finding you alone after an accident.

Risky/selfish behavior not only risks your health and the well-being of your family, it jeopardizes our flying sites!

Ward

The conditions at Daniels were much mellower than at Bill's when I had my accident.
I've flown a lot after that incident. I spent a day at the training hill and felt perfectly fine with foot launching so I had no reservations when it came to go flying a mountain again. Yes, I had a serious accident - do you all think I should just stop flying? Is that the answer? I don't think so. I learned from my mistakes and will try to never make those mistakes again.
Also, let me emphasize again that I did not go to Daniels planning to fly alone, and once that was the case I only did so after carefully assessing the conditions.

Respectfully, Bacil's example had everything to do with leaving the field:
"One of our local pilots had that happen to him landing out XC from Daniels on 4/9/95" It wouldn't of made a difference if 50 pilots have been present when he launched...

I agree that risky/selfish behavior jeopardizes one's safety and not only - though I don't consider my flight at Daniels as neither.


Obviously (and it was made clear from the first time I appeared on the mountain flying scene) around here every pilot that trained somewhere else is seen as probably some incapable, idiot outsider, inconveniencing all the other local pilots. I remember specifically a local trainer trying to stop me from being allowed to fly (successfully so), this after I had enough training and sign-off to do so. I received a personal message with an excuse, I wonder why that wasn't a public statement...? Are our sites around here so special that training somewhere else makes it impossible to fly here? Are all other instructors incapable and sign-off pilots for no reason? Let's be serious. This ludicrous behavior has to stop. We are all adults, in charge of our own well-being. Let's stop the preconceptions, looking only at the negative, and try to help each other instead of hindering one's progress - I've seen too much of that going around.

[markc]

I have to interject a thought here.....

How many times are pilots alone at launch, *after* helping others into the air? And if they decide to self-launch in order to get into the air themselves, isn't it true that they could also find themselves in a situation where the potential help from my those already in the air would be too-little/too-late?

Does the possibility of that happening mean that such a pilot should *never* fly in such a situation?

Some might say 'yes', always. Others might disagree, because they are willing to accept more of a risk...

Is one 'right' and one 'wrong', ALWAYS?

The point I'm trying to make is that the world isn't black and white. There are judgement calls that get made all the the time, and I don't think that the inherent uncertainty and risk of flying can be eliminated.

Back to Felix's experience, I see lots of judgement and no *questions*. Here are a few:

Felix, what was it about the day that made you feel confident enough to launch alone?

Felix, what was the wind direction, velocity, and gust factor during the half hour before you launched?

Felix, did you have a wind meter with you to help with assessing conditions?

Felix, did you have any second thoughts about launching that day, and what if so, what was it that ultimately tempted you into the the air?

The lack of such questions is a bit of a red flag with me.... The point of these forums is to engage in conversation/ Q&A , not pontification.

MarkC

[Ward Odenwald]

“too-little/too-late?” - not even close to going it alone. Pilots in the air, observing the last one in the air is not the best possible arrangement but significantly better than nothing at all or attempting to phone your wife or friend after the fact with the bad news.

Ward

[XCanytime]

Respectfully, Bacil's example had everything to do with leaving the field:
"One of our local pilots had that happen to him landing out XC from Daniels on 4/9/95" It wouldn't of made a difference if 50 pilots have been present when he launched....

Felix you just don't get it. The "that" in the sentence above refers to getting KTFO landing in trees. It has nothing to do with XC. I was associating the two because of the commonality that NOBODY was around when the pilot went into the trees on 4/9/95 and NOBODY was around when you launched and had shit gone south for you launching or exiting the slot NOBODY would have been there to call if you were KTFO.

I agree that risky/selfish behavior jeopardizes one's safety and not only - though I don't consider my flight at Daniels as neither.

I disagree, because of the fact that anytime ANYONE flies alone it ratchets up the risk big time. An indisputable fact.

Obviously (and it was made clear from the first time I appeared on the mountain flying scene) around here every pilot that trained somewhere else is seen as probably some incapable, idiot outsider, inconveniencing all the other local pilots. I remember specifically a local trainer trying to stop me from being allowed to fly (successfully so), this after I had enough training and sign-off to do so. I received a personal message with an excuse, I wonder why that wasn't a public statement...? Are our sites around here so special that training somewhere else makes it impossible to fly here? Are all other instructors incapable and sign-off pilots for no reason?

I am sorry to hear that you feel this way. As far as I know if you have a foot launch sign off you are qualified to launch from our mountain sites.

Let's be serious. This ludicrous behavior has to stop. We are all adults, in charge of our own well-being. Let's stop the preconceptions, looking only at the negative, and try to help each other instead of hindering one's progress - I've seen too much of that going around.

Once again, I am sorry to hear that you feel this way. This thread is not about hindering one's progress. It's not personal. It's about safe flying practices. Sincerely it is. Bacil

[XCanytime]

If you read any books on Hang Gliding that have been written by very experienced, sage pilots, every one of them gives the advice of following the rule of NEVER FLYING ALONE.
And while we are at it I'll quote the rest of the set of rules that should be memorized and practiced always for the sake of safety:

NEVER FLY WHEN TIRED.
NEVER FLY UNDER THE INFLUENCE OF ALCOHOL OR DRUGS.
ALWAYS TAKE OFF AND LAND INTO THE WIND. DON'T TAKE OFF IN WINDS MORE THAN 30 DEGREES OFF SLOPE.
KEEP THE NOSE DOWN AND UNHOOK WHEN THE FLIGHT ENDS.

NEVER ADD MORE THAN ONE NEW THING AT A TIME.
THE WIND COMPLICATES ALL FLYING - THE STRONGER THE WIND THE GREATER THE COMPLICATIONS.
JUDGEMENT TAKES THE LONGEST TIME TO ACQUIRE OF ANY ASPECT OF HANG GLIDING.
ALWAYS FLY ONE STEP BELOW YOUR LIMITS.

Bacil

[markc]

Oh, and if *after* such questions you feel the need to make a point.... Then by all means, go for it!

My major gripe is that I often don't see enough of an interaction *prior* to that point.... I understand that there's value in 'calling it like you see it', but that should not happen *until* there is an actual conversation.

MarkC

[markc]

Oh, and another point.... I have often benefited from the generosity of those who have been willing to help others off the mountain, while knowing that they might either be stuck up top, or that they might be self-launching. And I have done that favor in return on occasion.

Are you going to tell me that this is fundamentally different from flying alone?

REALLY?

I just don't see it that way.... The same risks are there, if you seriously F it up then no one is going to be there in enough time to make a difference.

So I will return to the *questions* that really matter:

What was the day like?
Why did you feel that launching solo was 'OK'?
How did you evaluate conditions in order to make your decision?

Without such questions, and without meaningful answers, nothing is learned.

MarkC

[XCanytime]

Oh, and another point.... I have often benefited from the generosity of those who have been willing to help others off the mountain, while knowing that they might either be stuck up top, or that they might be self-launching. And I have done that favor in return on occasion.

And I have too. And the usual arrangement that I set up is that the next to the last pilot will hang around above launch to ensure that the last pilot gets off safely. Any pilot who gives a rats ass about safety and gives a crap about his fellow pilot will make a similar arrangement.

Are you going to tell me that this is fundamentally different from flying alone?

Yes.

REALLY?

Yes. If you are alone there is no one hovering above you to ensure you get off safely.

I just don't see it that way.... The same risks are there, if you seriously F it up then no one is going to be there in enough time to make a difference.

Huh? Nobody will be there in enough time to make a difference? That may be so. Still, having somebody hovering above with a radio who could contact somebody in the LZ (if somebody is in the LZ) to call 911 to report a pilot in the trees off of launch is a damn good setup. If no pilot in the LZ with a radio, then the pilot lands pretty quickly and dials 911 3+ minutes after the incident, if he carries his cellphone with him. Fly completely alone and you GUARANTEE that the response time is a hell of a lot longer than if you flew with other pilots. So I would say yes there is a fundamental difference and that fundamental difference is response time if something goes awry.

Bacil

[markc]

Point taken Bacil, and you are right, flying alone definitely is of greater risk of than flying last. The scenario I was thinking of was one in which immediate aid is needed,and in that situation I still think the risks are the same. But there are others in which the ability to contact EMS, even if there are delays (try to raise the pilot on radio: observe from air: land: make a call), could make a big difference.

However, I still think there is a problem with this topic: The *lack* of questions like those I suggested by those who wish to 'call out' a pilot on a decision that s/he made.

There's real value in discussing risks, and much can be gained by looking at a specific example, but the key word there is _discussion_ .

Jumping into a 'what in the heck were you thinking' post without first asking very specific questions about the nature of a given day/event can be counterproductive.

MarkC

[Dunegoon]

First of all these are the facts. Straight from USHPA.

2-02.01 Introduction
USHPA pilot ratings are issued to reflect completion of WITNESSED tasks. Some tasks may seem to require excessive precision or attention to detail, but the practice preparing for them will prove beneficial. A rating gives a pilot an introduction to local people at a different site. Flying sites are labeled according to the approximate skill level required to fly there safely. A pilot may fly the hill only if the local people feel he is capable of doing so.

This means that local instructors, observers and flight directors do have the authority to decide if you can fly despite what rating you may have. Don't take it personally if you don't get to fly.

It is recommended that all pilots maintain a flight log. Show it as proof of recent flying and ratings.

For a positive contribution, I suggest that a copy of "Judgement Training Manual for Glider Pilots" by Thomas Knauff and Doris Grove be used to help understand the "judgement process."

Today's gliders are so nice to fly that pilots often develop flight skills quickly without the corresponding judgement and WX experience levels. This is a normal but dangerous part of pilot development. I hope that this will be taken constructively.

Charley F.

USHGA 14442 since 1975. Ex instructor. PP SEL, glider aero tow, tailwheel rating.

[FlyingFelix]

Felix, what was it about the day that made you feel confident enough to launch alone?

Felix, what was the wind direction, velocity, and gust factor during the half hour before you launched?

Felix, did you have a wind meter with you to help with assessing conditions?

Felix, did you have any second thoughts about launching that day, and what if so, what was it that ultimately tempted you into the the air?

The lack of such questions is a bit of a red flag with me.... The point of these forums is to engage in conversation/ Q&A , not pontification.

MarkC

I own a wind meter, bought it after the first couple of mountain flights - I use it every time I go flying.
Wind was coming straight in. 8-10 MPH, consistently so, with some low cycles 3-5 MPH. Highest I've seen it gusting before even starting to set up was 12 MPH.
There were birds flying soaring, looking nice and smooth up top as well.
After setting up and watching conditions some more it was still looking exactly the same. There was a nice long lull - that's when I went and got into the harness, hooked in and easily walked the glider down to launch from the road (obvious in fact in the video).
I waited a bit longer on launch until winds picked back up, probably around 8 MPH when I launched (not sure, the wind meter was put away by this time, the 6030 wasn't showing a reading).
I had no reservations about flying at any time while being at launch - before, during and after the set up.

I have had a major accident, I know how that's like and definitely don't want to have that happen again. None of you need to remind me of that...and definitely none of you need to talk down to me (or anybody else for that matter) - you might not like it if I do the same to you, and believe me I can!


When I wrote: "I watched conditions carefully for a while before deciding to fly" I meant just what I wrote above. Should I write every detail like this when I post on this forum? Perhaps that's my big mistake right there: sharing on this forum. I'll remember to stop doing all of that and use this forum only as a flying pick-up place and no more.
In my opinion, once we take to the air we fly SOLO every time. Yes, deciding to give it a go without anyone around might be a little more of a risk than if other pilots were around, but it's a decision I felt perfectly comfortable with given the mild conditions; I don't see it as selfish/risky (beyond the usual selfish/risky behavior we all have every time we fly - to other people the very idea of free flying is selfish/risky)
I have been the one that self-launched after all others flew away at a mountain site on 3 different occasions, this flight felt no different than any of those.
Flying at Daniels that day was "exciting" probably because it felt exactly like any other XC flight. That's pretty much what it was.

Bacil, I realize perfectly well that if the shit hit the fan it would of sucked, but isn't it the case every time we fly??? Once you take to the air you're on your own. Period. Stop trying to explain how I don't understand something, I assure you I understand it all perfectly well.
Self-launching happens a whole lot in our sport - it's up to the pilot-in-charge to decide if it's a go or not.

Anyway, I'll stop participating in this "discussion" (funny that only Marc realized this was a firing squad and not a discussion). It's not like I learned anything I didn't know before and feel like I'm wasting my time defending myself for no reason.

No hard feeling on my part whatsoever, hope to see you guys in the air soon - but as far as this topic, I'm done.

Cheers.

[John Dullahan]

Felix,

Try not to take the criticism personally, and use it as a learning experience. To those taking aim at Felix, please try to keep the pontificating to a minimum, and couch your comments as one brother pilot to another.

Remember, all who have commented on this issue, including yours truly, have made major judgment errors in the past that resulted in accidents, some spectacular, and several were not subjected to the same level of criticism as Felix.

"Let he who has not sinned throw the first stone."