Pulpit 1/30

[XCanytime]

Looks like perfect conditions for a first local mountain flight. I'm committed to making it happen. Anybody else interested? Bacil

[carweill]

Interested,

at what time


Carlos

[sailin]

Hey Carlos,
Amy and I are going to arrive at 11. Then we are going to do a walk of the LZ for Amy .

Looks like it might be nice out there.

Jon

[carweill]

Good deal!

I may get there a little after you


Carlos

[mcelrah]

Sooo... report! - Hugh

[sailin]

Soarin Day at the Pulpit! Amy and I arrived at about 11 and found a snowy but drivaeble road past the restaurant to the launch area. Unfortunately it wasn't so driveable closer up into the launch parking area........hence we started the day with some shoveling to get us back out But hey, the shoveling was a good pre flight stretch/warm up
Carlos arrived shortly after us and found us "unstucking ourselves" and joined in to help out. Thank you man. Shortly after that Bacil walked up, after smartly parking at the restuarant.
Conditions were pretty sweet. The wind was coming fairly straight in with some north cross in it at about 10-12mph.
Carlos, Amy and I begin to set our gliders up and Bacil transformed into a snow shoveling machine!!! Seriously this guy moved some serious snow to make it walkable up to the launch ramp...there was some DEEP snow drifts. Thank you Bacil!! After we were set up, Bacil and Amy headed down to do a walk of the LZ while Carlos and I stood on glider watch up top. It got a little rowdier during this time with some gusts and a little more noth cross here and there so when Bacil and Amy returned he decided to hold off on launching her and waiting for things to settle a bit. Me and Carlos were up. I launched first into a nice straight in cycle. I got up pretty easily right out in front of launch and worked my way up to about 800' over. I stayed up pretty easily between 400'-800' over for the entire flight. The air was bouyant with very little sink to be found. There was an occasional small thermal that would roll through but it was mostly just solid ridge lift. I flew a little bit with a raven and I was told when I landed there was a larger bird overhead but I never saw him. Carlos launched not long after me and we shared the nice air between ourselves. Man it felt nice to be soarin!!!!
After a little over half an hour I headed out to the primary LZ and had a nice landing heading almost due north. Carrying the glider back to the breakdown area was fun with all the contours of that LZ hidden by snow.......a good post flight workout Carlos landed not to much later and we began the break down process. Amy graciously came down and gave us ride back up top. The plan was to have Carlos drive back down to the LZ and Bacil and I launch Amy...and so it went. I won't steal Amy's thunder by giving her flight report, but I can tell you this. She had a great launch, crused nicely down the ridge making it to the primary LZ easily, and headed in for landing. She had a hard landing(I'll let her tell you about it) but was super happy to have done her first local mountian flight!!!! Way to go Amy!!
It was a beautiful day to be soaring in the mountains.....After all the blown out days at the Pulpit...this was SWEET!!!
I have to say a HUGE THANK YOU to Bacil for coming out and busting his butt for us when he didn't even have a wing to fly. Seriously man, thank you! Thank you also to Carlos for helping out.
Can't wait to soar again!!! Hope to see you all out there!

Jon

[A0213]

Well, I did it... my first local mountain flight!!!

Bacil took me to the secondary LZ and walked it with me, as we discussed my flight plan. We drove back up to launch and found that conditions had become a little 'sporty' for my first flight, so we launched Jon and Carlos instead. They both had great flights- seemed to just own the air!

I drove down to pick up Jon and Carlos so they could help me launch. Carlos came up with us and then went back down to the LZ with his car (so he could be in the LZ when I was landing).

Back at the top, I got myself ready to go and stepped up to the gravel launch pad. I was pretty nervous, but was able to maintain my concentration to launch. Bacil and Jon were both there for wire crew and support- which helped tremendously!

I waited about a minute before finding a cycle I liked. Three steps later, I was off the ground... and was going up!!!! I am not sure how far over launch I got (maybe 100-200 feet?). I turned left and soared the ridge for a few minutes. As soon as the primary LZ was within my view, I headed out that way. I feel really good about this part of my flight!

And the part I don't feel so good about....

I started my downwind a little too low and had the bar pulled in a little too much... before I knew it, I was flying way to fast, my base was VERY low, and my turn onto final was very sharp. I caught my left wingtip on the ground (in the snow) and then beaked my glider... and then beaked my head. I bent my two down tubes and possibly my left washout tube as well (I have not done a thorough exam of the glider yet). I got up right away and yelled for Carlos to come over... and he came running! Lots of tears and lots of hugs... thank you. I called Jon right away (and come to find out, he had a feeling something had happened because he saw me disappear out of the sky) so he was already on his way down. A few minutes later Jon and Bacil arrived... lots more tears and lots more hugs. Jon walked me back to the car and Bacil and Carlos put my glider away for me- Thank you two for doing that.

Jon and I headed out, and stopped at the ER near home. My neck and back was pretty sore, so I wanted to make sure all was OK. The hospital did 20 xrays- from every angle possible... and good news is, everything is still in alignment. And, the better news is the Percocet and Flexeral that I got (this explains why I did not post sooner... that stuff really puts you in a cloud).

So, what did I learn? I need to set up better approaches and learn how to judge altitude properly.

Jon and I are still planning to go to Florida at the end of this week for some AT. I am looking forward to this- will be a great opportunity to set up approaches and learn how to judge distances/altitude better. I struggle with this... so I think this will be a good chance to help myself... maybe even do a tandem again and ask the other pilot for some real-time spacial awareness tips. Also, I am in the process of setting something up with the shop down there to inspect my glider for me- just to make sure I don't miss anything.

Again, thank you all Bacil, Carlos, and Jon for you help and support.... much appreciated!

[mcelrah]

Well!

First, CONGRATULATIONS on your first mountain flight! May there be many more!

Second, SORRY about your mishap, glad you are OK - and well medicated! But...downtubes are like Kleenex...

And GOOD ON YA for getting back on the horse that threw ya. Aerotow will get you recalibrated on approach altitudes. Which towpark are you going to?

- Hugh

[markc]

I'd like to echo Hugh's congratulations-and-commiseration Amy, and I hope that you are feeling better very soon.

I remember my very first approach and landing, and how surprised I was at how quickly the ground came up. And that was with S-turns at the end of the field, not a downwind/base/final. Depending on the field and the conditions, you might want to give S-turns a try, until you have a good feel for the appropriate altitude for the turn onto final. Then give DBF's a try on days that are smooth, gradually transitioning to DBFs for all flights.

Tandems are also a great way to gain altitude awareness, but keep in mind that conditions at flight parks can sometimes be more predictable & reliable than what you might encounter at a mountain site (sloped terrain, less open space, more turbulence). You have to be able to translate what you learn in the tandem setting to a different sort of LZ.

Congratulations again on your first mountain flight! That's a huge step forward Amy, and even more so if you can walk away from your hard landing as a wiser pilot, determined to learn from it and to keep on flying.

MarkC

[kcarra]

Hi Amy

I was so sorry to hear about your landing. Do you think that the snow on the ground contributed to a lack of perspective? You might want to have someone on radio in the LZ talking to you for your next mountain flight to give you a little guidance.

Hope you have a good time in Florida. Go to Quest and hang out with Lauren! (She used to live and fly here)

Karen

[Danny Brotto]

It’s not unusual for novitiate pilots to get altitude and speed disorientation. Consider your recent training. Stronger conditions at Smithsburg where your ground track is slow, you’re not doing turns near the ground, and there’s a height reference via that cluster of houses near the road (even if only in your peripheral vision.).

Now consider the conditions on that high flight. The ground seems to be going by slowly due to your height above the ground for most of the flight. Now as you get closer to the ground everything starts to speed up (just as you want them to slow down to figure things out!) In addition you are compelled to make turns to get into the LZ and the ground height reference is totally shot as the terrain in the LZ is sparse, unfamiliar, and undulating. Add to that a snow covering to further diffuse height clues and the pilot can get confused quickly about their perspective to the world below and around!

In the bad old days, new pilots flew a lot at low altitude training hills before hitting the mountains. I had over 500 low and slow flights before my first mountain experience. It was at Zirk’s which is a “clope” launch (steep slope/cliff) with an immediate 800ft+ ground clearance. Typical for new mountain pilots in the day, I had a good launch and followed with a high speed zoom to the LZ. This action was due to the sense of no movement as there was no ground perspective of motion (due to the height.) We had to make conscious effort, to learn to ignore this spatial illusion of lack of speed and “fly the aircraft”! The basetube should be at about he same place as it was on the training hill not at you knees; we had to learn that!

When flying passengers in sailplanes, I always warn the passenger during the landing approach that the ground will start rushing by very quickly, to expect this, and not get scared. After spending some time at altitude with the ground movement perspective being very slow, that turn onto final with the ensuing rush of the ground can be confusing and unsettling!

So how do you address this? Study about spatial disorientation to intellectually grasp the problems of pilot physiology (sounds like you are doing that already.) There is a lot of information online to peruse about this. Definitely fly tandem in FL with an instructor focusing on approaches. No need to take the full height tow, do the pattern tow thing. Take the opportunity to tandem at both flight parks to get some different perspective of terrain and even ask to land at different parts of the flight park. Work on developing the muscle and visual memory for a consistent landing pattern.

Glad you are healing up well. I hope you find good weather to practice, find, and establish good pattern work in FL. Setting up a good landing approach is one of the most refined skills in flying. It’s good to establish that skill early on in your flying career.

Best wishes,
Danny Brotto

The road to wisdom?
- Well, it's plain
and simple to express:
Err
and err
and err again
but less
and less
and less.
~Piet Hein, "The Road to Wisdom," Grooks, 1966

[XCanytime]

DBFs for all flights.

In winds of 15+ MPH, DBF is not recommended. The turning onto base is difficult to pinpoint when to execute it, since the glider's ground track onto base will be "skidding" downwind. If a forested area is at the downwind edge of the field, you may find yourself not able to penetrate upwind to get into the field, and out of options save for a tree landing. A figure 8 approach allows you to "hover" above/inside the downwind edge of the field in 15+ MPH winds, and when the right height is achieved, all you have to do is pull in and burn it in on final. The glide will be reduced dramatically with the 15+ MPH headwind, so a greater angle with your target spot will exist when entering the final approach.

Bacil

[deveil]

arrrrgh

[Ward Odenwald]

I also use the figure 8 approach for the same reasons mentioned by Bacil but was "flamed" for suggesting it during an earlier discussion http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.p ... 156#p19156, so I'd like to see more discussion about the pros and cons of different techniques. For me, staying above the LZ field and focusing on the spot where I want to land while burning altitude is the safest approach. Above ~1500 ASL, 360 degree turns and then transition to figure 8s at the down-wind edge of the field with reversing turn directions so that you never take your eyes off of the landing target.

Ward

[deveil]

flamed? did i miss something? 'hoping that i, myself, am not being quibbling or caviling, but i just read everything that followed your posting and it looks to be the very discussion you are looking for.

having expressed that opinion, and it is merely an opinion, i'll just step away, as i don't want to get imbroglioized.

[theflyingdude]

I agree with Bacil and Ward. A figure-8 approach is probably easier when you're starting out and in stronger winds. The DBF approach has some advantages and once you gain some spatial perspective, it's the generally preferred method absent stronger winds in the LZ. Both methods have their place and as you gain flying experience, it's an advantage to have both in your bag of tricks, IMO.

JR

[deveil]

.. you might want to give S-turns a try, until you have a good feel for the appropriate altitude for the turn onto final. Then give DBF's a try on days that are smooth, gradually transitioning to DBFs for all flights.
MarkC

mark, you ignorant slut,
would you, please, the next time you don't mean absolutely, in every and all situations, to the exclusion of everything and regardless of anything - would you please be so explicit so as to preclude the natural assumption of your being rigid to the point of absurdity.
thanking you in advance,
garyDuh

[XCanytime]

Our eyes are not very good in judging absolute altitude, but they are very good in judging angles, with a resolution of a few degrees. The middle of the road time to turn on final is when your glide slope to your target makes a 10 to 15 degree angle (glide ratios of 5.67:1, 3.73:1) with the ground. To illustrate the opposite ends of the spectrum, with a topless glider with no wind, the angle should be a bit flatter (< 10 degrees) to allow extra distance to bleed off the energy/airspeed before landing near the target. With a Falcon in moderate wind, the angle should be quite steeper (>> 15 degrees) in order to burn it in and land near the target.

Bacil

[markc]

Then give DBF's a try on days that are smooth, gradually transitioning to DBFs for all flights.

Sheesh, even though I'm trying to be careful, I let slip a word which implies absolutes, such as "all" ... Sorry, my bad!

Obviously, there is no such thing as a single type of approach under "all" conditions.

And yes, I use S-turn approaches in some conditions, even though proficient in DBF's. A typical example (for me) is when landing at Woodstock on a strong day with rotor expected off the tree lines and wicked gradient.

To those who like to jump on posts, I will kindly request that you **ASK** before assuming. Something along these lines might be appreciated:

So, Mark, just curious, are you saying that S-turns have no place after one has become proficient in handling DBF approaches?

To which I might have replied:

Oh, great question! And you're right, I didn't mean to imply that DBFs are the only way. Let me tell you a story about how and when I've done my most recent S-turn approaches. There I was....

My point? CONVERSATION rather than ASSUMPTION will significantly up the signal-to-noise ratio in these forums, especially during the winter months!

Ask questions, and encourage conversation. That's what makes a forum's content meaningful.

MarkC

[Danny Brotto]

Gotta pipe in here. Pretty much agree with Mark C. I prefer DBF although have no problems with "S" turn on final and figure "8"'s (which in MHO are an advanced maneuver.) That being said, S's and figure 8's creep me out... means something out of the ordinary is happening (and I strongly support boring landings.)

Go watch someone flying his or her first solo or early flights at Highland... DBF all the way! Why? Because they have the altitude/luxury to teach it, instill good practice, and it’s the right thing to do anyway. Training hill flying? You are starting your flight basically in final so you only get to experience/practice "S" turns before landing. You have to develop that DBF skill. In the Md/VA, get some aero training for DBF experience. BTW, Highland does a FANTASTIC job with instilling good landing approaches! Sony and Adam are animals about that and they won't cut you loose w/o it it.

Let me ask you this… you are on a United Airlines flight into BWI (or IAD or LAX or wherever) and the pilot begins to “S” turn on final… wouldn’t that creep you out?

Danny Brotto

PS: So say there's a flush cycle on the ridge and you and a few of your buds are heading out to land and you're starting to think about setting up in the pattern when the pilot ahead of you starts doing S turns on high base... if you had a motor... you'd go around but you don't have a motor...wouldn't that creep you out?

[XCanytime]

Hey Mark,
Even if you slipped on the word "all", and I read it as it was written, it still sparked some information that beginner pilots may not have known about, and definitely need to know about early in their flying career. It's meant to inform the less experienced, that's "all" . Bacil

[CraginS]

Amy -
1.A - Super congrats on the big and wonderful 1st!
1.B - Attagirl for the way you handled all the not so great parts, including bouncing back for more
2 - Karen is right - hanging with Lauren will be a great way to learn from a local CHGPA lady who went from newbie to SkyGoddess
3 - In all the DBF or Figure-8 discussion, be sure to go back and read the book or talk to folks about the way to do 8's so you are not "walking" down the LZ as your S-turns are in front of each other instead of on top of each other.
4 - Pattern tows at an AT park are a great way to practice both DBFs and 8s for approach over and over and over in a short time.
5 - Did I say CONGRATULATIONS?


Cragin

[markc]

Double wow! I just realized that, although I meant to describe figure-8 approaches, I used the term S-turn instead. I guess I need to use that 'Preview' feature a bit more myself, eh?

So, there I was, my very first mountain flight (Woodstock), having _never_ been high before, sinking out after an awesome experience and refusing to believe that I wasn't going to get back up above the ridge. But eventually it became clear even to me that I had to land (John was probably freaking). The approach discussed with my instructor was a figure-8 at the end of the field, being *very* careful not to creep up the field, and then to burn it in on final once I was about twice tree-height, right down the center. Worked great, except for the part about judging altitude.... There was no flare, there was simply a "plop!", as I landed on my wheels (maybe even with a bit of a bounce!) when the ground came up **way** faster than I expected.

There was no towing of any kind in the area back then, so no opportunities to gain experience running an approach from altitude. If I'd tried a DBF approach on that day? No frickin' way, and the result would probably have been very ugly, rather then merely ungraceful.

So that experience of mine is what lies behind my attitudes/advice of today..... The availability of towing _does_ significantly change the equation for new pilots. However, if one *is* having a problem judging DBF altitudes in a mountain LZ situation, in spite of aerotow experience, then a Figure-8 might be worth considering. Caveats? Well, it should be a on a smooth day, into a nice LZ, with lots of visualization and preparation before-hand. Under those conditions, some of the risks that Danny alludes to might be ameliorated a bit. And what's the advantage? Well, "all ya gotta do" is hang out at the end of the field, doing your turns, waiting to reach the appropriate altitude, and then you turn final and burn that baby in. Under the right circumstances this might be easier for a new pilot to perform, because there's just that one crucial decision point (when to burn it in) rather than the multiple judgments that a DBF approach requires.

A few times a year, when landing in sporty conditions, I'll throw an S-turn into my DBF, just so that I don't have to be quite as precise as I would otherwise need to be at the DBF turnpoints. And once or twice a year, I'll do a true figure-8 approach, simply because the conditions aren't safe for a DBF.

Figure-8 approaches are one of the tools that should be in any pilot's toolbox. And they *might* be helpful for newly-minted mountain pilots who are landing in fields that they've never experienced before. As always, "your mileage may vary".

MarkC

[XCanytime]

Mark,
You hit the nail on the head. Ditto again. Couldn't have said it better myself. Bacil

[Danny Brotto]

Please allow me to clarify. I'm not advocating DBF's for early mountain pilots with only training hill experience. In fact I'd warn against it. "S" to final in benign conditions and no true "Figure 8's" please early on. I contend that true figure 8’s and not a beginner maneuver. They involve turns > 180 degrees and compel you to look away from your intended landing area (note, I didn't say "spot".) Do that until your instructor deems you qualified for DBF's, embrace that skill, and revert to "S" (and true figure 8's after you get more experience) only when unusual circumstance warrant it.

The "S" turn onto final was the standard technique for early high flights when I started flying. I remember it taking quite an effort to force myself to do DBF's... but for very most circumstances, it's the proper approach to apply. To advance developing the DBF techniques, you could bask in the luxury of instruction at Highland; they open in March. Wish I had that option 30 years ago!

Danny Brotto